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	<title>Comments on: Hearing again</title>
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	<description>Politics, Technology, and other stuff from St. George, UT</description>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670/comment-page-1#comment-6874</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:57:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670#comment-6874</guid>
		<description>You seem to have a one way ratchet giving government credit, but never any debits. 

I&#039;ve read enough SciFi that toyed with the good and bad sides of libertarian approaches to have thought this through numerous times and like the outcome.

See &quot;The Unincorporated Man&quot; as a recent example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You seem to have a one way ratchet giving government credit, but never any debits. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read enough SciFi that toyed with the good and bad sides of libertarian approaches to have thought this through numerous times and like the outcome.</p>
<p>See &#8220;The Unincorporated Man&#8221; as a recent example.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670/comment-page-1#comment-6873</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670#comment-6873</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s one way to sweep away the debate in favor of returning to an imagined golden era of liberty in which you would already be dead after a &quot;nasty, brutish, and short&quot; life as a laborer. Remember that you stand on the shoulders of giants to be able to see so clearly, or what think is clearly, and debate the relative merits of iPad, GPS, and MRI.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s one way to sweep away the debate in favor of returning to an imagined golden era of liberty in which you would already be dead after a &#8220;nasty, brutish, and short&#8221; life as a laborer. Remember that you stand on the shoulders of giants to be able to see so clearly, or what think is clearly, and debate the relative merits of iPad, GPS, and MRI.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670/comment-page-1#comment-6870</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670#comment-6870</guid>
		<description>The basic question is what does theft / waste / loss of freedom of a powerful federal government cost, relative to its modest investment in general research.

I&#039;d make that trade in a heartbeat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The basic question is what does theft / waste / loss of freedom of a powerful federal government cost, relative to its modest investment in general research.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d make that trade in a heartbeat.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670/comment-page-1#comment-6869</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670#comment-6869</guid>
		<description>D E seems to be offering a theory that if the federal government doesn&#039;t sponsor basic research that some one else will, and that if the government does sponsor research it will do so badly. Which, I suppose is interesting, but seemingly based only on an ideological faith in the private sector since he offers no data to support his hypothesis.  No doubt, the private sector brings us the rich life from goods and services that offer a profit. And the government does not even try to develop commercial goods, just those that are needed for government missions  - tanks and bombs and spy satellites. 

The DARPA work cited is a decent example of government&#039;s sponsoring the high risk underlying research and leaving the exploitation to the profit motive. That is one basic feature of the US innovation system. 

I suppose it is true, although minor in effect, that some government research attracts boo-birds, like the Senator Proxmire Golden Fleece awards for projects famously like the sex life of the tsetse fly. But most of that complaining is mere political posturing and we couldn&#039;t find a preventive measure for sleeping sickness without first understanding how the vector operates. The same situation applies to a prevention of liver cancer in the presence of hemochromatosis.

We have to keep research in perspective. Research seeks to understand how nature works; development seeks to exploit that knowledge. Research by its nature cannot promise any specific results and is therefore avoided by profit-seeking entities. Before Pfizer can develop a pharmaceutical against a cancer, it must first understand how the cancer cell works. For that knowledge, it turns to federally sponsored research in biology funded mainly by the National Institutes of Health and the National Science Foundation where peer review governs the choice of the best research.  Peer review was a core consideration in Bush&#039;s 1945 exhortation for promoting and steering a national research program.  

And it is true that some research is driven by political considerations, like the Army&#039;s research in breast cancer. Again, such &quot;political science&quot; is minor as almost all research is funded competitively by the research agencies. I was there doing it as a minor cog in the great research funding machine. Proposals sometimes included some supporting letter from a Member of Congress, but I ignored such letters unless they added useful information about the proposed research. I don&#039;t remember a single case where the member added anything useful for competitive evaluation. 

On balance, the federal government has produced a wealth of knowledge that helps fuel the US innovation machine. Eliminating that sponsorship should be done with great caution for the effects of shutting off the flow of knowledge. Before shooting the golden goose, we should have a replacement strategy with some assurance of its working. Shooting the goose to avoid the cost of feeding it could be a grossly false economy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>D E seems to be offering a theory that if the federal government doesn&#8217;t sponsor basic research that some one else will, and that if the government does sponsor research it will do so badly. Which, I suppose is interesting, but seemingly based only on an ideological faith in the private sector since he offers no data to support his hypothesis.  No doubt, the private sector brings us the rich life from goods and services that offer a profit. And the government does not even try to develop commercial goods, just those that are needed for government missions  &#8211; tanks and bombs and spy satellites. </p>
<p>The DARPA work cited is a decent example of government&#8217;s sponsoring the high risk underlying research and leaving the exploitation to the profit motive. That is one basic feature of the US innovation system. </p>
<p>I suppose it is true, although minor in effect, that some government research attracts boo-birds, like the Senator Proxmire Golden Fleece awards for projects famously like the sex life of the tsetse fly. But most of that complaining is mere political posturing and we couldn&#8217;t find a preventive measure for sleeping sickness without first understanding how the vector operates. The same situation applies to a prevention of liver cancer in the presence of hemochromatosis.</p>
<p>We have to keep research in perspective. Research seeks to understand how nature works; development seeks to exploit that knowledge. Research by its nature cannot promise any specific results and is therefore avoided by profit-seeking entities. Before Pfizer can develop a pharmaceutical against a cancer, it must first understand how the cancer cell works. For that knowledge, it turns to federally sponsored research in biology funded mainly by the National Institutes of Health and the National Science Foundation where peer review governs the choice of the best research.  Peer review was a core consideration in Bush&#8217;s 1945 exhortation for promoting and steering a national research program.  </p>
<p>And it is true that some research is driven by political considerations, like the Army&#8217;s research in breast cancer. Again, such &#8220;political science&#8221; is minor as almost all research is funded competitively by the research agencies. I was there doing it as a minor cog in the great research funding machine. Proposals sometimes included some supporting letter from a Member of Congress, but I ignored such letters unless they added useful information about the proposed research. I don&#8217;t remember a single case where the member added anything useful for competitive evaluation. </p>
<p>On balance, the federal government has produced a wealth of knowledge that helps fuel the US innovation machine. Eliminating that sponsorship should be done with great caution for the effects of shutting off the flow of knowledge. Before shooting the golden goose, we should have a replacement strategy with some assurance of its working. Shooting the goose to avoid the cost of feeding it could be a grossly false economy.</p>
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		<title>By: D E</title>
		<link>http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670/comment-page-1#comment-6857</link>
		<dc:creator>D E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670#comment-6857</guid>
		<description>And where is the line between funding cancer research and funding abortion? Congress doesn&#039;t see the line, why should we?

I think you have underestimated the effect of private businesses on improving quality of life and overestimated the trustworthiness of government.

The government has a detrimental effect on science as a whole, not just medicine. Government funded science has the effect of creating politicized science and keeping the scientists begging and fighting for more funds. He who pays the piper chooses the tune.

There have been benefits to government science projects. For instance, we are arguing over a medium originally developed by DARPA. But it achieved usefulness because of private adoption. But for every internet there is a study about how studies waste money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And where is the line between funding cancer research and funding abortion? Congress doesn&#8217;t see the line, why should we?</p>
<p>I think you have underestimated the effect of private businesses on improving quality of life and overestimated the trustworthiness of government.</p>
<p>The government has a detrimental effect on science as a whole, not just medicine. Government funded science has the effect of creating politicized science and keeping the scientists begging and fighting for more funds. He who pays the piper chooses the tune.</p>
<p>There have been benefits to government science projects. For instance, we are arguing over a medium originally developed by DARPA. But it achieved usefulness because of private adoption. But for every internet there is a study about how studies waste money.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670/comment-page-1#comment-6850</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670#comment-6850</guid>
		<description>Oh, if you have to choose between cancer and government, you&#039;ll take cancer?  Perhaps you have also way misundersestimated the contribution of the federal government to the good life you now enjoy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, if you have to choose between cancer and government, you&#8217;ll take cancer?  Perhaps you have also way misundersestimated the contribution of the federal government to the good life you now enjoy.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670/comment-page-1#comment-6849</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:55:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670#comment-6849</guid>
		<description>Defense and border security are the only things I think it needs to fund. Even interstate highways could be done by states just cooperating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Defense and border security are the only things I think it needs to fund. Even interstate highways could be done by states just cooperating.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670/comment-page-1#comment-6848</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670#comment-6848</guid>
		<description>The main beneficiary would be people that didn&#039;t die. Based on SoCal bill boards I&#039;ve seen, that seems a marketable premise.

I might be convinced to have the government fund basic cancer research. But if that puts on a slippery &quot;if we do that, we can do this&quot; slope, then we would all be better off if it didn&#039;t fund it.  The amazing freedoms and economic growth from not being slaves to government would easily offset any funding role they have. One of the hundreds of thousands of billionaires created could fund itas their legacy.  Somebody like Jon Huntsman (google it), only multiplied by thousands of instances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The main beneficiary would be people that didn&#8217;t die. Based on SoCal bill boards I&#8217;ve seen, that seems a marketable premise.</p>
<p>I might be convinced to have the government fund basic cancer research. But if that puts on a slippery &#8220;if we do that, we can do this&#8221; slope, then we would all be better off if it didn&#8217;t fund it.  The amazing freedoms and economic growth from not being slaves to government would easily offset any funding role they have. One of the hundreds of thousands of billionaires created could fund itas their legacy.  Somebody like Jon Huntsman (google it), only multiplied by thousands of instances.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670/comment-page-1#comment-6847</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670#comment-6847</guid>
		<description>Since the main beneficiary of defeating cancer would be society in the form of lower medical costs (although that requires some accounting assumptions) and longer life, where is the incentive for the private sector to invest so much in such uncertain prospects?  Only government takes on that sort of task.

Government in the way, where and how?  The National Cancer Institute www.cancer.gov pours money into the science, $6B last year. I don&#039;t know how much BigPharma puts into it, but their building blocks come from government funded research on the nature of the disease and the science of the human body. What complaint have you about government&#039;s role in cancer research?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since the main beneficiary of defeating cancer would be society in the form of lower medical costs (although that requires some accounting assumptions) and longer life, where is the incentive for the private sector to invest so much in such uncertain prospects?  Only government takes on that sort of task.</p>
<p>Government in the way, where and how?  The National Cancer Institute <a  href="http://www.cancer.gov" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancer.gov</a> pours money into the science, $6B last year. I don&#8217;t know how much BigPharma puts into it, but their building blocks come from government funded research on the nature of the disease and the science of the human body. What complaint have you about government&#8217;s role in cancer research?</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670/comment-page-1#comment-6845</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670#comment-6845</guid>
		<description>cancer kills people, across state lines. It is a matter of choice, and I wouldn&#039;t necessarily say that the Manhttan project on cancer would be funded by government. I think my post was more that there role would be getting out of the way.

WOuld I fund cochlear implants? No. Cancer, maybe, but I doubt it would be needed in either case, and I think that research would be better because it would be focused on producing results not getting more research money from the government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cancer kills people, across state lines. It is a matter of choice, and I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily say that the Manhttan project on cancer would be funded by government. I think my post was more that there role would be getting out of the way.</p>
<p>WOuld I fund cochlear implants? No. Cancer, maybe, but I doubt it would be needed in either case, and I think that research would be better because it would be focused on producing results not getting more research money from the government.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670/comment-page-1#comment-6844</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670#comment-6844</guid>
		<description>Government support for research has been debated since the Vannevar Bush report in 1945 that urged the National Science Foundation. Since it is generally believed that the economic return from basic research is too uncertain for private investment, the government has taken the dominant role. The large number of PhDs, who form the huge US science base, is a direct result of the government&#039;s funding of university research. 

I believe that this very blog recently advocated a Manhattan project against cancer, an echo of the Nixon call for a &quot;war on cancer.&quot;  We would all like the imagined results with the equally imaginary idea that we wouldn&#039;t have to pay for it with public, taxpayer-supplied funds. 

I would certainly find interesting an economic analysis that says that less government research would lead to a better US scientific system and a gain in US economic competitiveness.  I have one such book by Englishman Terence Kealy.  Can you point to any other credible argument backed by data, not just a generic belief that less government is better?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Government support for research has been debated since the Vannevar Bush report in 1945 that urged the National Science Foundation. Since it is generally believed that the economic return from basic research is too uncertain for private investment, the government has taken the dominant role. The large number of PhDs, who form the huge US science base, is a direct result of the government&#8217;s funding of university research. </p>
<p>I believe that this very blog recently advocated a Manhattan project against cancer, an echo of the Nixon call for a &#8220;war on cancer.&#8221;  We would all like the imagined results with the equally imaginary idea that we wouldn&#8217;t have to pay for it with public, taxpayer-supplied funds. </p>
<p>I would certainly find interesting an economic analysis that says that less government research would lead to a better US scientific system and a gain in US economic competitiveness.  I have one such book by Englishman Terence Kealy.  Can you point to any other credible argument backed by data, not just a generic belief that less government is better?</p>
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		<title>By: Paula</title>
		<link>http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670/comment-page-1#comment-6829</link>
		<dc:creator>Paula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670#comment-6829</guid>
		<description>Why the assumption that the government needs to fund the research?  Why the assumption that cutting federal $ will kill the program?  Perhaps w/o government intervention, more money would flow into research.  Perhaps w/o government $, the research will become more efficient.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why the assumption that the government needs to fund the research?  Why the assumption that cutting federal $ will kill the program?  Perhaps w/o government intervention, more money would flow into research.  Perhaps w/o government $, the research will become more efficient.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670/comment-page-1#comment-6823</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jun 2010 00:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670#comment-6823</guid>
		<description>You like playing these games? I regularly tell you what I&#039;m happy to cut, and this would be amongst it.  I can barely think of anything I think the Federal government SHOULD fund.  You can offer up cuts all day, I&#039;ll say yes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You like playing these games? I regularly tell you what I&#8217;m happy to cut, and this would be amongst it.  I can barely think of anything I think the Federal government SHOULD fund.  You can offer up cuts all day, I&#8217;ll say yes.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670/comment-page-1#comment-6822</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jun 2010 13:39:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kennelson.com/newblog/hearing-again-9670#comment-6822</guid>
		<description>How much would you reduce federal support of hearing research for cherished deficit reduction? If the answer is none, join the multitude who find virtue only in reducing other people&#039;s favored programs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How much would you reduce federal support of hearing research for cherished deficit reduction? If the answer is none, join the multitude who find virtue only in reducing other people&#8217;s favored programs.</p>
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